Untitled – November 1, 2024 00:00:08 Unknown: My name is Becky stone and this is the space where we remove all the filters and dove into the conversations that matter. Let’s be honest. Life can feel like a rollercoaster some days, and we all have moments where our brains are like they’ve gone off script, whether it’s anxiety or doing its thing or ADHD, having a party while you’re trying to focus. It’s time to stop tiptoeing around these topics and be honest. I hope to break the silence and smash the stigma together. We make a difference today. I have Rachel Evans here to join me. Hi, Rachel. I would you like to introduce yourself and say a little bit about what you do and your backgrounds and why what you do for work? Yes, I can. So I did actually because she was my supervisor before the maternity leave. And I’m a psychologist and I have a therapist to go to. Normally I work with mine, though I think I’ve got to because I use it. I work with clients. You have eating disorders that kind of moving away from them enology now, which we can maybe discuss. I thought I might work in her clinic like that. Obsessed with food. They hate that body. And maybe they’re using, like, more and more extreme measures to try and control that body shape and weight. So maybe like making yourself vomit, taking laxative, I think I thought maybe I should work with them in their body. Pat at the center, control them forward way, help them reach their goals, which are something like food. Freedom would feel more comfortable in their body. How long have you been in this hospital? How long? I started my business in 2017 Sep. I thought that it was a bit more like, Oh, I could help you internationally eating. I think like he was an introduction. I kind of get to be like eating disorder at or something like that. So I tried to kind of softly, gently joke about having the change of things. And then I did what with the book training in 2018 with the National Center for Eating took about it and I was like, okay, you know, we’re actually just going to say bulimia or we’re just going to stay at his word and just talk about it. Well, we must done China at the same time because I was 2018 when I started at the National Center. Before. It’s weird, isn’t it, how our paths cross. But it is also I think it’s good to and actually maybe it’s an important topic to touch on is that it is important. So when you are looking for somebody who’s got an eating disorder, like an eating disorder therapist to make sure they’ve got the right training. Because there’s so many people out there that are not trained in this but say they are. I think that’s I think it’s about the package being transparent, the provider being transparent because I might I don’t know where I think on that. It probably depends when you ask me day to day, because I think the things that I can bring to the table that someone who hasn’t been trained in, even though it is or maybe it hasn’t happened, the experience of. Don’t bring. But then why do you think that each relationship is already important? If I think of a therapist. It’s about that type of thing. So, look, here’s what I can offer you. I mean, here’s where I do have gaps in my knowledge that could be helpful notes. But on that sort, it leads us to our next question about and could you tell us why you decided to specialize in bulimia? Yeah. So I guess I’ve always been interested in helping people. I thought I was going to be a counselor and when I was younger, I didn’t really know what that was. The reason I thought, Oh, that’s not a very good job. I don’t know. I don’t know an idea in my mind. I think it was just like, Oh, you used to be an accountant or, I don’t know, like a poor job. I’m not sure. But I did psychology at the other end, and it’s a domestic health psychology. And I really wanted to help people like get healthy. But unfortunately, that led to me, I guess, trying more different diets, trying, trying, trying really hard to be healthy that I went the other way. And then I wasn’t eating enough, I was rising up, became my dad of different seed. And I guess if we would put a label on it, it would be orthorexia. But I’m also not quite sure that it wasn’t anorexia because, you know, the thoughts that I was having about food, it was controlling my everyday life and I went from that. Then I did see a therapist for a little bit, mainly because I wanted to complain about my dad, not because I wasn’t eating, because I was living with my parents at the time. I was in my early twenties and they could see that I wasn’t okay and obviously they were, you know, trying to get me to eat more kind of my last. And maybe it’s not always great coming from your parents, but I thought I wanted that and I thought that binge eating and it just seemed like they were out of control after I’d been so strict with myself so long. I had that then I thought, to make myself grow up because I thought that was a good idea. Like I need to get rid of the spirit that, you know, it can be quite dangerous, you know, it’s downsides to that. And for me that became addictive and it became a coping mechanism in a different way that she if I was or, you know, I didn’t know how to deal with my emotions or even I was trying to avoid does that then I would binge impaired. So it touched off a lot about trying to be healthy or trying to actually change my body, but then it actually became something different in the end. And then it got to the point that I was like, I cannot do this anymore. And it was getting more and more frequent. It was like the first thing I thought about when I woke up, it was what I did before. It felt like physically I was just so drained, like my insides already competed, you know, with the bingeing, purging and that, right? I just have to make the change. And I think that when I got some help with like what direction I wanted my life to go in and I thought, oh, actually I did want to be a counselor, I’d love to help people this, but I need to help myself pass through that difficult, really tough experience. You actually bit similar to me, you actually got the golden treasure, even though it was such a toxic treasure, actually something so like understanding about it that you can help others because you get it. This is. Yeah, definitely. Because when I was in therapy, I remember the therapist because I would wake up in the middle of the night and eat. When I started bingeing, I wouldn’t have to in the day. But the reason when I woke up at night and I would go like Compel, it’s going to do it. And you think, Oh, could you try doing Gallagher or something instead? You know, on paper, that kind of I thought, okay, I could try. I just felt like I just absolutely cut in. And and I think I felt like she didn’t really understand. Your brain is racing with anxiety a hundred miles an hour by some kind of guarantee. Some yoga is the last thing that you’re going to be thinking about when you’re in that point. And it. Yeah, definitely. I think my body of what did it with that like extreme hunger that it was like okay that’s the only time you’re going to eat. You are eating God. If you think of that, you’re not going to let yourself be in the day then. Yeah. Was your lady qualified in eating disorders? At the time I picked test, I went on what to call them today whenever I’ve got the profile on it, like psychology, that kind of stuff. Right. Not saying it. Right. Yeah. So that thing that I look to was naming it though. That was that 2014. And so I guess that was National nine around about that time. And I look someone who was naming who I thought I liked and she offered like a free chat. And so I thought, okay, I’ll have a chat with her. And so I know she is now, but I’m not sure if she was at the time modified or not. Obviously she was in therapy, but not maybe not specifically eating disorder. Do you think there’s some misconceptions around bulimia that you might feel if somebody is listening that you could help clarify? Yeah, I suppose. I didn’t know that I had Bolivia at the time. Even though I study psychology, I didn’t really connect the things. And I think sometimes people think like, Oh, what? I’m doing it. Not bad enough. Quite. There’ll be an eating disorder, I think, because people have misconceptions about, you know, how much they’ll be doing the habit. But I think a big one as well is that people think teenage girls get eating disorders, white, Caucasian, teenage girl. So the thought of no one, actually, I’d be probably thinking my clients are not different race, there’s different age, gender. And you know, anyone could struggle with that and none of them really talks about it either. I think that’s the that’s the bit I pick up on. It’s such a taboo. I mean, it’s so much better, right? So much better than it used to be. And but no one really talks about is still quite shameful. It’s still right to boot. And people don’t want to talk about it in their family systems because. That worried that people not gonna understand. Yeah, I think I think it can be hard for people to understand. I think maybe that misperception too, that someone would just, if you want enough, you can stop. And I think in some ways that is true. But I think in other way the very much going on underpinning their. Yeah so much to unpick for a lot of people that you can’t be like I’m not going to do all. For example I have had clients who before they’ve come to me have stopped purging. But she then they’re still worried about that. That’s going to happen. That body, though, now they’ve started restricting or now they’ve started exercising more when they were maybe take laxatives before making themselves vomit. So it’s not that you just the logic change that, but I think that well in every area of your life that you have changed thing to accommodate the eating the though to try and avoid that and if the. It’s not like you can just make. Not likely to wake up one day and have it changed, I think. Sadly, that might be the case. Like a mind map, isn’t it? Where? It’s not just like when clients come. I always think the icing on the cake, the little cherry Bake wells . And it’s like, I always look at it. It’s like Leeds Castles Firework Policy guy. No, you can’t just focus on the one thing because you’ve got all these other things going on around. Jay Yeah. So I literally I have a whiteboard over there. I literally have like a mind that I think of all the things that we cause. People I go on to, but like people they’re like, Oh, what do you do in therapy or what? She’s like, Son, it’s like, Well, I kind of try and juggle all of these different things that you looking at. Like what? Well, the habits they invest, you know? How about your biology? What’s going on when you’re bingeing on projects make more difficult what went on in the past? Like what leads do you see? That’s sort of the goal. But that’s like one of the things I think that with as a therapist, you’re trying to help the pattern to go and see what to address. When I got my knowledge, you know, it almost like you could tell me it would make sense. I never take a blank. What’s that? It’s got the name of the book, Burn It with the Blues. It’s like a big chip. Yeah. And then you pull the thick that out. And I think sometimes it’s like these boards are all the things that we have to draft them. A kind of pulling pulling the stick with. We do different things. And what about you? Do you want the boards of want out? And it’s like, don’t even have to get past the things because they just resolve themselves against them or maybe have been not eating enough that I saw it know, I think I got more mental clarity that bubble energy maybe they can start going out doing more things with their friend the dam so it becomes less important because we pulled one stick out by you know or you might spend time pulling out name marbles the coming that you think that oh this therapy isn’t worth all this is not good. I thought that you know, you pour the other thing and it’s like, well, I what now? I feel so much better this week because I think well, that’s I think after I really like that analogy I might or that much because I think that is so right because I think just in my experience, so many people put so much expectations on that. My Harry Potter one’s got this magic and it’s going to make it all better. And I have to say, my Harry Potter wand is broken. It just doesn’t work. So I’ve been to Edinburgh. They won’t even give me a refund back in the shop with it. There is so much expectations that we’re going to fix it. But actually I think it’s finding. That’s right, isn’t it? One, the one that works and then find the one that’s got stuck and that’s the one that we need to do the work on. But that is a really, really good analogy. Yeah, I think especially as well what you said about people wanting a magic wand sometimes because I do hypnotherapy to you, sometimes people think like, Oh, Rachel, snap my fingers and then it will things will be different. And it is a collaborative process even in therapy. And I have a client through that. She had that belief that we’ve done like a bad economy. Stockton and guilty about eating, which was a massive thing. But it doesn’t mean everything is great because she still didn’t feel good about her body. But then we worked on that as well. So I think that can be big picture. You like magic and stuff, but then, you know, a lot of it is. Unfolding or a gradual change that you maybe don’t notice until you actually get. I find it just my wish. I had one cut up by the end of last day that we forgot that she wouldn’t eat before a certain time. They had very strict rules about time and get food and that cause she’d made them rich. We were looking at her notes that she would need. She’s like, Oh, I can’t even remember. That was me. Like, I don’t remember. I think because she’s out, like, so far away from it that sometimes you don’t notice a paragraph. And I think that’s why it’s nice to have a therapist. Oh, look how these things have changed. You know, when you’re in the day to day. So powerful, isn’t it? I think therapy with the right therapist can just be so magically powerful and that see that comparison of where you was to where you are now. And you can literally sit back and you just think, wow, that client has worked so hard. Yeah. Let me just go. We’ve been talking and I’ve got slightly off track. So you know talk about misunderstandings so that actually that so and leans back into the clinical labels and behaviors. So in your view, how will labeling bulimia impact someone’s recovery journey both positively and perhaps with some challenges? So I think maybe the positive side is that people can feel validated about it, that they’ve had this struggle, that maybe they told family and friends they didn’t understand the struggle or they’ve kind of been doing it and it’s like, Oh, actually, here’s what’s going on for you. I think sometimes it can help people make sense of their behavior, seeing it kind of written down I think as well in the UK, if you want more from nature and depending on the funding in your local area and the the thing sometimes you do almost needs enable in order to be able to act to support. And I guess that might be the positive, but I don’t think you can validate someone in a different way without giving on the label. You can stop it. Yeah, that is your theory and it’s what might have come from without the label or I think the, the thought that in the beginning I’m kind of being away from labels because I think people can almost get so attached to that like, oh, I believe Miguel, I have Linea. That’s so much more about you. And also, I think it’s tricky in recovery than. Maybe when the pasta doesn’t meet the criteria anymore, but they’re not okay. They don’t feel like they’re okay. You know, that’s just that’s still be addressed. Oh, but I don’t have to live here anymore, so I should be okay. But I’m still not loving man. Yeah. No, no, no. It doesn’t make it so. Is the labels really powerful? And a lot of my clients all want this validation with the label. Then they go through like the they whether they stop working with me and they go into the system and then they come back out and they’re like, but still not okay. It’s that all the other areas that never really get addressed around. So. Take in your guests in a bit like me. You don’t actually need the label to work with either you or me. Oh, no, definitely not. Like I wouldn’t give people a diagnosis. And also, the other thing I wish I had in the beginning, the label of literally made up like the diagnostic criteria have changed from the DSM like its diagnostic manual. Oh, my God. Yeah. Do you know what dyslexic my. But my brain’s doing when you just ask me. That was like, I love that. You know, we get annoyed, isn’t it, that you stop anyway? It’s the criteria of Chase. And you might think, oh, that’s the more Maurice that. People were going on the fifth were like, it’s a fad. It’s like you had this diagnosis thing. No extending it very well. And they also are in the last iteration of it, the fifth one. But they’re not the same. They’re not the same things. So how can we diagnose the one when it’s made up? Does that make that tape? No. It is interesting how people like, especially a lot of my guys were all just because I need this validation, I need this. I am sick enough. Oh, yeah. I sort of have to say, like, you are sick because you’re with me. Let’s work together to nourish your tummy and nourish your soul. Yeah, I just need to have a whole body, and I don’t really like the time being that cold. I know the words that clients might use, and I would use that would be it. But I didn’t like the term mental illness either. Look, I know it feels like on the path to Namaste, and I actually. Like, Yeah, I had a lot going on but me it was a coping mechanism and it for me, I don’t know why the house is like this. The thing you have is all. Oh, you know, I like this is something I’m going through and actually I can change it as well. And it’s a struggle, isn’t it? I think with my when I had anorexia, I think I was really struggling, struggling mentally a lot. My anxiety was just through the roof and I was hurting like an anorexic was a bit like it was great because it numb me off, focus on what I was supposed to be focusing on. But I think. It was a big wake up call because I think going into therapy was most probably one of the most powerful things I’ve ever done. And at times I didn’t like my therapist because she was quite brutal with me, but it was what I needed. But I would say I was slightly off line. I wasn’t thinking straight. But you do relate to this head. Yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting that you describe it like that. Like. Yeah, there were definitely times I could have punctured. Well both though. What the it it’s like. Don’t know that I had to drive or something I made. I don’t know. I just don’t want to. Personally, I don’t quite like the term, but like I say, if people relate to it, they’re not voting for the person. So I think it doesn’t help. I think where on dyslexic i i my terminology for one was not mine, but words mean different to somebody else as well. So I think there’s also that area of it for like for me with my mental health, when I had the anorexia, I was just I wasn’t I wasn’t thinking straight. I wasn’t worried, even though I knew that part of my personality was still there because I was bringing two kids up. Yeah. That sounds like a real struggle. Oh, well, I think the biggest the biggest for me is when my therapist mounts me and she said, And who’s there for your kids? And I was like, I am, she said all year. That was brutal. That was like taking it in the hall or open it out and then expose me. And that was the guilt. But it’s what I needed to hear because I wasn’t there for my kids emotionally. And actually, that most probably was quite a big turning point for me as well. So I don’t know. Sometimes having those labels can be really helpful, but then it’s how they get used. Agreed. Huh? Wisconsin. It’s Christian. So how are there subtle ways, subtle signs of bulimia and family of friendships that might not immediately notice that you’ve got stuff going on? And how how can you gently support them without them feeling too intrusive? Very difficult question because I think everybody’s family dynamics are different opportunities to that. With that friends are different. I think some things may be thinking about that or that maybe if they have a change in the time, not that you be like, Oh, your change of late, that’s definitely Mia. But you might think things not quite right. Yeah, well, the thing has changed, um, that you guess you would be asked to do that job them over by sizing, or you might see that they’ve got maybe like tips around that they didn’t have before. I’m wondering kind of why there are so many. They might be quite evasive about things that we’ve said before, and people tend to feel a lot of shame or guilt around what they’re doing. I know I did. Like, even when my dad confronted me about like, are you making yourself sick? I was like, No. The guy had no problem lying to his face because I didn’t want to up. I didn’t want to give up at that point, though. I think you you know, your loved one best in terms of if he said maybe if being direct the thing you think they might eat bowl is it more like you were saying in the question is it more gently? Is it that you can maybe just check in on their well-being? Is that maybe that you could try to be a positive role model with how you’re addressing food? You know, don’t say things and about. I think the example is now but it’s like to diet also saying I need a feed so you know and I model that and you boost that self-esteem kind of you spend time with them, you know, diets or things. If you don’t feel like actually having a direct conversation about this is the way to go. Okay. I think it depends whether the one is in denial or in denial. A lot of the time, like I thought when I. Basically, Anthony, I are thinking of hedging. Then I thought my pitch day. Then I was eating a bigger range of foods than I was before that. But I recovered even though I was still making myself that. But to me. It didn’t have a problem because I was eating more though. Funny. But now, even though they know that I thought I it like that it didn’t want to change. And then it got to the point that if someone asked me at that point when I did want help, I would have just looked at whether they’d asked me the other time. That would be like, No, that’s not happening. Yeah, yeah, it does, mate. So it’s just a curious question, which you get a lot of validation from your weight loss. Like, say, people like your dad sounds brilliant. He like straight out calling you out on it and has the courage to to call you out on it. Was there other people around you? You were validating the weight loss because we we are in a society that when people are losing a lot of weight through an eating disorder, there’s a lot of attention that gets drawn And they don’t realize that there’s damage being done. And I just wondered, you’ve been you name used losing weight and use but you was looking normal what ever normal looks like on the air for you for me. But I thought when I did my mistake that I did lose some weight that yeah, but it wasn’t. I thought I looked healthy, but I guess that was my because then I’d not been restricting long enough and I was eating healthy. I only had my chia pudding. But even though I hated putting horrible. But I was like, Oh, this is healthy. I need to like eat that. And so I do the health thing. And then I had to break up what I thought it was a breakup. The person actually didn’t think we were dating, which was half the problem. And then I think that’s when I went a bit more into overdrive, like, I need to get this revenge body so that my focus was more a losing weight than it had been before. So I did lose some weight before the Christmas and then I went to court. So actually those people and the new friends that I had it, only me and that body was my old clothes were baggy on me and I was needing to buy the next guy down and then actually wasn’t a healthy weight for me. You know, I was cold all the time. I lost my period. I have a falling out like no. The physical signs that this wasn’t, you know, good about food for me but they it’s funny because I’ve taught them since they knew me at the beach with the healthy one. That’s what she looks like. They didn’t know that Ruby thing was that big a toad dye that they kind of do think that. And then my dad, Sydney, I lived in Singapore and I was wearing a t shirt and he was like really shocked. And he was like, Jack, I’m going to cancel the family holiday to come see you if I’m the way I think that’s when I kind of went out of denial a bit because I was like, Okay, I should eat more. I got something more from the shop. And it was really a struggle to make my copy. Even though I knew calories, I knew what it well buy. Well, it’s really hard for me to add that. And I think then I did go to a cult group when I was there, but it was mostly younger people and a lot of impatient things. But, you know, people would come into the street so it didn’t feel like the right thing. And then it went back into denial about it, though it was quite up and down. So I think I. Think previous times that I’d been on a diet. On the diet, I had got validations that. And like when it was just a diet such that I would. I think when I was actually struggling to get the validation for at that point by previously had. So I guess for me it was like, oh, losing weight is a good thing. And it wasn’t. So that turned out and was like, Oh my God. Your dad sounds like he’s your biggest cheerleader. I think I think he is. Which is annoying as an alcoholic. But you know what? The end of that. But yeah, he is very supportive. I am lucky. I think, one, I’m really lucky that they paved the therapy for me. In that instance, I had to at that point. Otherwise, I don’t think I would have gone. I mean. Well, it just sounds like the light needs to sort of started. He was able to mask. He was very clever. He could mask a huge amount. But also you had really struggling. But other people around you didn’t notice. I think, because obviously you put on the front, don’t you? Like how it’s still going. I would just have all that talk to her in my head about, Oh, what we’re going to eat when we die, you know, when I’m going to exercise today. A lot more than that, that. I didn’t tell that to other people because it doesn’t really come up in conversation that I think like with mine, I think I was leaking out through certain conversations looking back on it because I can remember being pulled into records, the conversation at work because I was commenting on other people’s food which now was not okay. But the time I saw ice and I wasn’t like, I didn’t mean at the time that I wanted to be nice, but I was just a bit like. I’m saying this stuff and it’s not normal, but not threats are so powerful and it’s so invasive and it does. You did? Yeah, most definitely. I think I’m. Thing that was a big thing for me as well, is that I had ups and downs recovering all kind of changes in the eating to whatever I think. But I didn’t have that or what I could wake up because when I was ready restriction, I would wake up and exercise in the morning. I wake up early, I make myself do it in my bedroom. And I think that when I stop doing that and also then I was I was bingeing at night, which wasn’t obviously ideal. It was the moment, you know, I actually had energy in the morning and I believe I didn’t energy. And I think I’m on the the different thoughts in my head back down. I was like, oh. But you know, it’s changed. I think when you’re those ducking it, sometimes you don’t notice it got so bad, it becomes normal, does it? I call it like a trance. You’re like on a treadmill, aren’t you? Just like a trance. It’s just the same thing. And then there is that bit of clarity, energy, like you just see the world differently and you just want to embrace the world and do so much. I think that’s the thing. Like when I was struggling, when I when I lived abroad, I had nick puppies that wanted to go to. Then I get that I’m not ready to freak out about the foods and I just couldn’t enjoy it but still had operations, still had things that I knew I like to do, but I just couldn’t do them anymore. They. And you end up missing out on a huge amount of opportunity. How would you work with your clients, helping them explore that sense of self and getting them to really enjoy living their life again? Yeah. I think like you said, I think people’s who have become a lot more like what, you know, struggling with, you know, eating body image and things. And so I actually sometimes get people to do your journaling, like, what’s one thing I like about myself today? And it could start out between like, oh, I like I had a good hard day or Oh, I like my nails painted red doing something quite easy. But then I’ll get into like, what do I like about myself today? I think, what have I done today? I think when I put my thoughts out here on the podcast because I was a bit now and I’m not like outrageous. But then we had a nice chat before another market. But now I think, I think just trying to build up that like what are the assets of your personality or you know, they help someone to damage you like that about yourself and. And I think even if you do it that couple of weeks, obviously, because you know, you’re going to have to answer it later said you did it before. Badge of mind those looking out for the day. The thing about these are the things about me that aren’t just being good at anything because I think if people are saying you can also get the sense of pride like I’m so good at that. Yeah, this is what drives me. But that might be other things about you and that, you know, arguably more important. So I think that’s the really nice one. And and I think. I have the eating disorder at last, I think. Then I just try and encourage people to get out there a bit more like what their hobbies are. And you know, I’m also look that that values you probably do that, too. But, you know, I think if you’re not living in nine with your buddies, you got to change your life. But they by viewing and spending time with your family, you’re possibly not going to be that happy. I hope you know that having a family, now that I know you create a bit more creative things like have clothes, you take crochet and like all those I’ve gotten a pillow at crochet thing now that clients that may be yeah I think. As you get more into therapy, you have more headspace. Yeah. And it’s those things that you were about on your website with that mind map. Those things start changing and social pressures become easier as well. I think when you’re on Nice, Nicer may like going out for eating or even having that conversation with somebody, just somebody new. I would I find that really overwhelming. So one thing that I like the podcast coming on with you, this is all quite neef me. Every single day I try and do one thing that pushes me out my comfort zone. So and I think maybe that is the experience from the time sorta it’s that, oh, I don’t want to be normal, I want to be slightly different and I want to push myself in a different direction. And it sounds like that’s what you doing with your clients as well. Yeah, I guess. I guess we are. And I think that competition is on and I think I think about that because it’s just not that that I you might say, oh, it was the worst thing I ever did. I don’t know about that and not do that again. But we can also look. Okay. What what did you learn from that experience? Oh, they might be like, oh, that was really good. I’m so glad that we did that in the day. You know, now I’ve seen accomplished myself, but actually I bet that I can do with being bad and I’ve got great learning. I think the good thing about therapy is like punch your slack because I think sometimes when a it. You just kind of do it and we take the front head. But I think it’s good to reflect on activities and like, almost like learning. Well, rather than, I guess the conscious, though, what? You just got out of it. No, I agree. And it’s a bit like you going back to what we said earlier, is that you can you can look at a client where they were at. And then see how far they’ve come. And it’s that bit of, wow, you’ve done all of that, but it’s all different. But like pieces in the puzzle, isn’t it? The different pieces that connect together and that social pressure and being able to socialize and have the courage and that sense of self is all part of it. Yeah. It’s like, yeah, there’s a lot of different, different facets. And I think that to explain is that I think one of the things that cooking and paste that like the, the eating, the order, whatever that it’s in person doesn’t really have a goal anymore. I think maybe you can have a thought in the future because maybe you’ve had these thoughts for a long time. And one thing that if because that’s our if we were not taught at my state by palpate the pictures of posing that oh this this four years ago and it was during cleavage you know if you would only have 20 people otherwise things change up. She ended up anti-choice back amniotic that’s that like like the F the whole area bore her and but then she couldn’t have a original wedding cake or, you know, vaginal things that I was making her wedding cake. And long story short, it was just kind of going on because it had to be very dietary. I think it was gluten free, dairy free. They found it quite well. And then I made it the night all night. Must have been the day, 30 days, the book. And then I think the next day and I put too much sugar in it. It wasn’t my. And then I would make it in the evening. And then I had this little Sainsbury’s but that advocate down the road that there was traffic on both sides and I wasn’t very down the middle and end of the delivery lorry and that has to wait behind that. And I just need to get the I cannot even look to get back to make this tape because I need it for tomorrow and it’s already getting late that it was like but they note that McCartney and tapping if you like deep like hey calm down that’s fine like you’ve got to get the sugar went got the sugar pop the first and then a bit weird happened in the shop but my in my day of mind and then I got back I was making the cake. And then today when you put the parchment paper round the ten that had gone a bit wonky when it cook. So it wasn’t quite the bite shape I do. I did tuke and my brain was just like you could make a fantastic. They’re funny because I don’t have that thought anymore. But I think it was I put so much pressure on myself to make the perfect wedding cake, my friend, because it was her wedding. And my, I think, put pressure on myself with a big thing, my eating disorder, not eating early. I like the bingeing purging what the then as though the thought came like oh you could make your thick. But it was very easy for me to be like an actor. It just feels like a thought now. Before, when I was 13, like I felt compelled to go and eat. Whereas now like, oh, this idea of my brain, it offered me that. Actually, I don’t feel like I want to get to do it because now I just find it horrible. If I was to make myself sick as I was, I actually enjoyed it before. No, no, no, David, you say that. But I didn’t have to attach to. I could just be like, hey, I can understand why this come up. Because of my history now. Now it’s like 10:00 at night, and I’m already stressed, but I don’t need to engage with the Olmec that I could let it go. So funny, my auntie was helping me ice the cake and she made lavender flour. And so I think that’s why I felt guilty that I can’t even take my auntie, who, like, doesn’t hardly know my friend had gone to all this effort. I was trying to multitask. I was like, No, it’s like she can make up. I think. I just think that I know my name, but I’m a boss now. But it’s so powerful, though, because you up the pressure that you put on yourself and the expectations you put on yourself, like actually just being able to recognize it’s just the thought is it is just the thought is going to pass, it is going to be okay. Your aunt is just gone. That’s the right way about it. Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was. It was an I’d taken them up and was really happy with that. But I just thought about that every time her budget comes up, I just think about, Oh yeah, look at that. What just popped into my head. But. You don’t need to attach to it doesn’t happen to me very often anymore. And I think maybe get this thought and I was thinking about this earlier how did the conversation about is it an illness almost like to me, I feel like I’m recovered. Do you know what people that I’ve collected always in recovery. I don’t feel like I’m always in recovery. I feel like across the imaginary line in the fan. I’m not going to delay things again because I know what would probably trigger me. They, for example, like if I thought the desire, my prayer grab and had to do this on that day and the time and you know, I just don’t think that would be good for me. Then note that thing to avoid. I feel like I’m not going to go back that far, even if I had a thought. I don’t think. To me it means. I’ve got an eating disorder saying I’m in the sorts quite normal because I get the thoughts and then I go to my little remnants like, Oh honey. And I’m like, Why are you here? Like, What’s going on? Like, I’ve got two choices here, like cannibalism. But you’re just the thought. Or you can go away. Gone. I think that I think it’s when you’re in the struggle that thought is bowling your whole life. And as opposed to, oh, it’s just a thought like say and it’s not acting on the Thor as well. And the cake’s quite an important part of your Eugen is in it because it’s the pressure you put on it, but also just to recognize how far you’d come that you just was like. Why am I thinking? Nathan Jones He was just like, ah, about it. Like, Oh. And I was like, Well, I was just thinking that she was talking about it. It sounds so far y like all the things that was then back. Our norm is not our norm now and it’s like but you, your friend had to go and have a party. A Pizza Express is brilliant. It’s one of those memories that she could never take away because it’s such a unique. There were no words in Justice Lester like that. Yeah. And Pizza Express. Under the referee counts, renamed for those who may be listening and going through something similar. Words of how would you say to help them encourage about their journey or the possibilities of recovery? And also, where can they find J? Yeah. So I think just I believe that recovery is possible. I think that means different things to different people. And I’ve talked about, I think is a line in the sand that, you know, that that and the hope is now. But I think things kind of keep getting better. And that’s all I know. Like when I because not that I’m recovered, but then I just get more and more freedom to do different things. And like we said about that thought, they get less and less. But I think I believe that recovery I think I’m going to have a different journey, get there. Everyone’s going to have different obstacles in the way. But I think. You know, when I’ve talked to clients, sometimes the best impressions impression on the idea that they can make a change. And I think why people get that and I had the not oh okay great I can do that. As I think I’m not sure if you seen there’s a lot of talk about assisted dying. Have you seen that? And putting my eye out there, then I know that that’s really just a put anorexia or eating disorder in that category of people that we might help with assisted dying. But then are we treating that like a terminal illness? What are the implications of that? We, I don’t think, tell at the Hope podcast that we could have about that topic, but they have to be afraid to pull that thing. And you can find me on Rachel Evans Dot HD or Facebook page 718 to Thursday. I probably actually put it in the show notes that. But now I would say thank you so much for sharing your journey and coming on today. AM But. And August comes out cause some of you will wait in bit was took written into this bit. Okay. Thank you for joining me in. We’ll talk I’m remember every conversation like this have helped tear down the walls and build communities where everyone can feel safe to be themselves. Keep in mind to beat, keep being kind to your mind. And if there is something here that resonates with you, share it with somebody else. You never know who might. Needs a little reminder that they’re not alone in this. Catch up next. Time for a more unfiltered, real talk. It’s the end. Untitled – November 1, 2024 00:00:08 Unknown: My name is Becky stone and this is the space where we remove all the filters and dove into the conversations that matter. Let’s be honest. Life can feel like a rollercoaster some days, and we all have moments where our brains are like they’ve gone off script, whether it’s anxiety or doing its thing or ADHD, having a party while you’re trying to focus. It’s time to stop tiptoeing around these topics and be honest. I hope to break the silence and smash the stigma together. We make a difference today. I have Rachel Evans here to join me. Hi, Rachel. I would you like to introduce yourself and say a little bit about what you do and your backgrounds and why what you do for work? Yes, I can. So I did actually because she was my supervisor before the maternity leave. And I’m a psychologist and I have a therapist to go to. Normally I work with mine, though I think I’ve got to because I use it. I work with clients. You have eating disorders that kind of moving away from them enology now, which we can maybe discuss. I thought I might work in her clinic like that. Obsessed with food. They hate that body. And maybe they’re using, like, more and more extreme measures to try and control that body shape and weight. So maybe like making yourself vomit, taking laxative, I think I thought maybe I should work with them in their body. Pat at the center, control them forward way, help them reach their goals, which are something like food. Freedom would feel more comfortable in their body. How long have you been in this hospital? How long? I started my business in 2017 Sep. I thought that it was a bit more like, Oh, I could help you internationally eating. I think like he was an introduction. I kind of get to be like eating disorder at or something like that. So I tried to kind of softly, gently joke about having the change of things. And then I did what with the book training in 2018 with the National Center for Eating took about it and I was like, okay, you know, we’re actually just going to say bulimia or we’re just going to stay at his word and just talk about it. Well, we must done China at the same time because I was 2018 when I started at the National Center. Before. It’s weird, isn’t it, how our paths cross. But it is also I think it’s good to and actually maybe it’s an important topic to touch on is that it is important. So when you are looking for somebody who’s got an eating disorder, like an eating disorder therapist to make sure they’ve got the right training. Because there’s so many people out there that are not trained in this but say they are. I think that’s I think it’s about the package being transparent, the provider being transparent because I might I don’t know where I think on that. It probably depends when you ask me day to day, because I think the things that I can bring to the table that someone who hasn’t been trained in, even though it is or maybe it hasn’t happened, the experience of. Don’t bring. But then why do you think that each relationship is already important? If I think of a therapist. It’s about that type of thing. So, look, here’s what I can offer you. I mean, here’s where I do have gaps in my knowledge that could be helpful notes. But on that sort, it leads us to our next question about and could you tell us why you decided to specialize in bulimia? Yeah. So I guess I’ve always been interested in helping people. I thought I was going to be a counselor and when I was younger, I didn’t really know what that was. The reason I thought, Oh, that’s not a very good job. I don’t know. I don’t know an idea in my mind. I think it was just like, Oh, you used to be an accountant or, I don’t know, like a poor job. I’m not sure. But I did psychology at the other end, and it’s a domestic health psychology. And I really wanted to help people like get healthy. But unfortunately, that led to me, I guess, trying more different diets, trying, trying, trying really hard to be healthy that I went the other way. And then I wasn’t eating enough, I was rising up, became my dad of different seed. And I guess if we would put a label on it, it would be orthorexia. But I’m also not quite sure that it wasn’t anorexia because, you know, the thoughts that I was having about food, it was controlling my everyday life and I went from that. Then I did see a therapist for a little bit, mainly because I wanted to complain about my dad, not because I wasn’t eating, because I was living with my parents at the time. I was in my early twenties and they could see that I wasn’t okay and obviously they were, you know, trying to get me to eat more kind of my last. And maybe it’s not always great coming from your parents, but I thought I wanted that and I thought that binge eating and it just seemed like they were out of control after I’d been so strict with myself so long. I had that then I thought, to make myself grow up because I thought that was a good idea. Like I need to get rid of the spirit that, you know, it can be quite dangerous, you know, it’s downsides to that. And for me that became addictive and it became a coping mechanism in a different way that she if I was or, you know, I didn’t know how to deal with my emotions or even I was trying to avoid does that then I would binge impaired. So it touched off a lot about trying to be healthy or trying to actually change my body, but then it actually became something different in the end. And then it got to the point that I was like, I cannot do this anymore. And it was getting more and more frequent. It was like the first thing I thought about when I woke up, it was what I did before. It felt like physically I was just so drained, like my insides already competed, you know, with the bingeing, purging and that, right? I just have to make the change. And I think that when I got some help with like what direction I wanted my life to go in and I thought, oh, actually I did want to be a counselor, I’d love to help people this, but I need to help myself pass through that difficult, really tough experience. You actually bit similar to me, you actually got the golden treasure, even though it was such a toxic treasure, actually something so like understanding about it that you can help others because you get it. This is. Yeah, definitely. Because when I was in therapy, I remember the therapist because I would wake up in the middle of the night and eat. When I started bingeing, I wouldn’t have to in the day. But the reason when I woke up at night and I would go like Compel, it’s going to do it. And you think, Oh, could you try doing Gallagher or something instead? You know, on paper, that kind of I thought, okay, I could try. I just felt like I just absolutely cut in. And and I think I felt like she didn’t really understand. Your brain is racing with anxiety a hundred miles an hour by some kind of guarantee. Some yoga is the last thing that you’re going to be thinking about when you’re in that point. And it. Yeah, definitely. I think my body of what did it with that like extreme hunger that it was like okay that’s the only time you’re going to eat. You are eating God. If you think of that, you’re not going to let yourself be in the day then. Yeah. Was your lady qualified in eating disorders? At the time I picked test, I went on what to call them today whenever I’ve got the profile on it, like psychology, that kind of stuff. Right. Not saying it. Right. Yeah. So that thing that I look to was naming it though. That was that 2014. And so I guess that was National nine around about that time. And I look someone who was naming who I thought I liked and she offered like a free chat. And so I thought, okay, I’ll have a chat with her. And so I know she is now, but I’m not sure if she was at the time modified or not. Obviously she was in therapy, but not maybe not specifically eating disorder. Do you think there’s some misconceptions around bulimia that you might feel if somebody is listening that you could help clarify? Yeah, I suppose. I didn’t know that I had Bolivia at the time. Even though I study psychology, I didn’t really connect the things. And I think sometimes people think like, Oh, what? I’m doing it. Not bad enough. Quite. There’ll be an eating disorder, I think, because people have misconceptions about, you know, how much they’ll be doing the habit. But I think a big one as well is that people think teenage girls get eating disorders, white, Caucasian, teenage girl. So the thought of no one, actually, I’d be probably thinking my clients are not different race, there’s different age, gender. And you know, anyone could struggle with that and none of them really talks about it either. I think that’s the that’s the bit I pick up on. It’s such a taboo. I mean, it’s so much better, right? So much better than it used to be. And but no one really talks about is still quite shameful. It’s still right to boot. And people don’t want to talk about it in their family systems because. That worried that people not gonna understand. Yeah, I think I think it can be hard for people to understand. I think maybe that misperception too, that someone would just, if you want enough, you can stop. And I think in some ways that is true. But I think in other way the very much going on underpinning their. Yeah so much to unpick for a lot of people that you can’t be like I’m not going to do all. For example I have had clients who before they’ve come to me have stopped purging. But she then they’re still worried about that. That’s going to happen. That body, though, now they’ve started restricting or now they’ve started exercising more when they were maybe take laxatives before making themselves vomit. So it’s not that you just the logic change that, but I think that well in every area of your life that you have changed thing to accommodate the eating the though to try and avoid that and if the. It’s not like you can just make. Not likely to wake up one day and have it changed, I think. Sadly, that might be the case. Like a mind map, isn’t it? Where? It’s not just like when clients come. I always think the icing on the cake, the little cherry Bentley. And it’s like, I always look at it. It’s like Leeds Castles Firework Policy guy. No, you can’t just focus on the one thing because you’ve got all these other things going on around. Jay Yeah. So I literally I have a whiteboard over there. I literally have like a mind that I think of all the things that we cause. People I go on to, but like people they’re like, Oh, what do you do in therapy or what? She’s like, Son, it’s like, Well, I kind of try and juggle all of these different things that you looking at. Like what? Well, the habits they invest, you know? How about your biology? What’s going on when you’re bingeing on projects make more difficult what went on in the past? Like what leads do you see? That’s sort of the goal. But that’s like one of the things I think that with as a therapist, you’re trying to help the pattern to go and see what to address. When I got my knowledge, you know, it almost like you could tell me it would make sense. I never take a blank. What’s that? It’s got the name of the book, Burn It with the Blues. It’s like a big chip. Yeah. And then you pull the thick that out. And I think sometimes it’s like these boards are all the things that we have to draft them. A kind of pulling pulling the stick with. We do different things. And what about you? Do you want the boards of want out? And it’s like, don’t even have to get past the things because they just resolve themselves against them or maybe have been not eating enough that I saw it know, I think I got more mental clarity that bubble energy maybe they can start going out doing more things with their friend the dam so it becomes less important because we pulled one stick out by you know or you might spend time pulling out name marbles the coming that you think that oh this therapy isn’t worth all this is not good. I thought that you know, you pour the other thing and it’s like, well, I what now? I feel so much better this week because I think well, that’s I think after I really like that analogy I might or that much because I think that is so right because I think just in my experience, so many people put so much expectations on that. My Harry Potter one’s got this magic and it’s going to make it all better. And I have to say, my Harry Potter wand is broken. It just doesn’t work. So I’ve been to Edinburgh. They won’t even give me a refund back in the shop with it. There is so much expectations that we’re going to fix it. But actually I think it’s finding. That’s right, isn’t it? One, the one that works and then find the one that’s got stuck and that’s the one that we need to do the work on. But that is a really, really good analogy. Yeah, I think especially as well what you said about people wanting a magic wand sometimes because I do hypnotherapy to you, sometimes people think like, Oh, Rachel, snap my fingers and then it will things will be different. And it is a collaborative process even in therapy. And I have a client through that. She had that belief that we’ve done like a bad economy. Stockton and guilty about eating, which was a massive thing. But it doesn’t mean everything is great because she still didn’t feel good about her body. But then we worked on that as well. So I think that can be big picture. You like magic and stuff, but then, you know, a lot of it is. Unfolding or a gradual change that you maybe don’t notice until you actually get. I find it just my wish. I had one cut up by the end of last day that we forgot that she wouldn’t eat before a certain time. They had very strict rules about time and get food and that cause she’d made them rich. We were looking at her notes that she would need. She’s like, Oh, I can’t even remember. That was me. Like, I don’t remember. I think because she’s out, like, so far away from it that sometimes you don’t notice a paragraph. And I think that’s why it’s nice to have a therapist. Oh, look how these things have changed. You know, when you’re in the day to day. So powerful, isn’t it? I think therapy with the right therapist can just be so magically powerful and that see that comparison of where you was to where you are now. And you can literally sit back and you just think, wow, that client has worked so hard. Yeah. Let me just go. We’ve been talking and I’ve got slightly off track. So you know talk about misunderstandings so that actually that so and leans back into the clinical labels and behaviors. So in your view, how will labeling bulimia impact someone’s recovery journey both positively and perhaps with some challenges? So I think maybe the positive side is that people can feel validated about it, that they’ve had this struggle, that maybe they told family and friends they didn’t understand the struggle or they’ve kind of been doing it and it’s like, Oh, actually, here’s what’s going on for you. I think sometimes it can help people make sense of their behavior, seeing it kind of written down I think as well in the UK, if you want more from nature and depending on the funding in your local area and the the thing sometimes you do almost needs enable in order to be able to act to support. And I guess that might be the positive, but I don’t think you can validate someone in a different way without giving on the label. You can stop it. Yeah, that is your theory and it’s what might have come from without the label or I think the, the thought that in the beginning I’m kind of being away from labels because I think people can almost get so attached to that like, oh, I believe Miguel, I have Linea. That’s so much more about you. And also, I think it’s tricky in recovery than. Maybe when the pasta doesn’t meet the criteria anymore, but they’re not okay. They don’t feel like they’re okay. You know, that’s just that’s still be addressed. Oh, but I don’t have to live here anymore, so I should be okay. But I’m still not loving man. Yeah. No, no, no. It doesn’t make it so. Is the labels really powerful? And a lot of my clients all want this validation with the label. Then they go through like the they whether they stop working with me and they go into the system and then they come back out and they’re like, but still not okay. It’s that all the other areas that never really get addressed around. So. Take in your guests in a bit like me. You don’t actually need the label to work with either you or me. Oh, no, definitely not. Like I wouldn’t give people a diagnosis. And also, the other thing I wish I had in the beginning, the label of literally made up like the diagnostic criteria have changed from the DSM like its diagnostic manual. Oh, my God. Yeah. Do you know what dyslexic my. But my brain’s doing when you just ask me. That was like, I love that. You know, we get annoyed, isn’t it, that you stop anyway? It’s the criteria of Chase. And you might think, oh, that’s the more Maurice that. People were going on the fifth were like, it’s a fad. It’s like you had this diagnosis thing. No extending it very well. And they also are in the last iteration of it, the fifth one. But they’re not the same. They’re not the same things. So how can we diagnose the one when it’s made up? Does that make that tape? No. It is interesting how people like, especially a lot of my guys were all just because I need this validation, I need this. I am sick enough. Oh, yeah. I sort of have to say, like, you are sick because you’re with me. Let’s work together to nourish your tummy and nourish your soul. Yeah, I just need to have a whole body, and I don’t really like the time being that cold. I know the words that clients might use, and I would use that would be it. But I didn’t like the term mental illness either. Look, I know it feels like on the path to Namaste, and I actually. Like, Yeah, I had a lot going on but me it was a coping mechanism and it for me, I don’t know why the house is like this. The thing you have is all. Oh, you know, I like this is something I’m going through and actually I can change it as well. And it’s a struggle, isn’t it? I think with my when I had anorexia, I think I was really struggling, struggling mentally a lot. My anxiety was just through the roof and I was hurting like an anorexic was a bit like it was great because it numb me off, focus on what I was supposed to be focusing on. But I think. It was a big wake up call because I think going into therapy was most probably one of the most powerful things I’ve ever done. And at times I didn’t like my therapist because she was quite brutal with me, but it was what I needed. But I would say I was slightly off line. I wasn’t thinking straight. But you do relate to this head. Yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting that you describe it like that. Like. Yeah, there were definitely times I could have punctured. Well both though. What the it it’s like. Don’t know that I had to drive or something I made. I don’t know. I just don’t want to. Personally, I don’t quite like the term, but like I say, if people relate to it, they’re not voting for the person. So I think it doesn’t help. I think where on dyslexic i i my terminology for one was not mine, but words mean different to somebody else as well. So I think there’s also that area of it for like for me with my mental health, when I had the anorexia, I was just I wasn’t I wasn’t thinking straight. I wasn’t worried, even though I knew that part of my personality was still there because I was bringing two kids up. Yeah. That sounds like a real struggle. Oh, well, I think the biggest the biggest for me is when my therapist mounts me and she said, And who’s there for your kids? And I was like, I am, she said all year. That was brutal. That was like taking it in the hall or open it out and then expose me. And that was the guilt. But it’s what I needed to hear because I wasn’t there for my kids emotionally. And actually, that most probably was quite a big turning point for me as well. So I don’t know. Sometimes having those labels can be really helpful, but then it’s how they get used. Agreed. Huh? Wisconsin. It’s Christian. So how are there subtle ways, subtle signs of bulimia and family of friendships that might not immediately notice that you’ve got stuff going on? And how how can you gently support them without them feeling too intrusive? Very difficult question because I think everybody’s family dynamics are different opportunities to that. With that friends are different. I think some things may be thinking about that or that maybe if they have a change in the time, not that you be like, Oh, your change of late, that’s definitely Mia. But you might think things not quite right. Yeah, well, the thing has changed, um, that you guess you would be asked to do that job them over by sizing, or you might see that they’ve got maybe like tips around that they didn’t have before. I’m wondering kind of why there are so many. They might be quite evasive about things that we’ve said before, and people tend to feel a lot of shame or guilt around what they’re doing. I know I did. Like, even when my dad confronted me about like, are you making yourself sick? I was like, No. The guy had no problem lying to his face because I didn’t want to up. I didn’t want to give up at that point, though. I think you you know, your loved one best in terms of if he said maybe if being direct the thing you think they might eat bowl is it more like you were saying in the question is it more gently? Is it that you can maybe just check in on their well-being? Is that maybe that you could try to be a positive role model with how you’re addressing food? You know, don’t say things and about. I think the example is now but it’s like to diet also saying I need a feed so you know and I model that and you boost that self-esteem kind of you spend time with them, you know, diets or things. If you don’t feel like actually having a direct conversation about this is the way to go. Okay. I think it depends whether the one is in denial or in denial. A lot of the time, like I thought when I. Basically, Anthony, I are thinking of hedging. Then I thought my pitch day. Then I was eating a bigger range of foods than I was before that. But I recovered even though I was still making myself that. But to me. It didn’t have a problem because I was eating more though. Funny. But now, even though they know that I thought I it like that it didn’t want to change. And then it got to the point that if someone asked me at that point when I did want help, I would have just looked at whether they’d asked me the other time. That would be like, No, that’s not happening. Yeah, yeah, it does, mate. So it’s just a curious question, which you get a lot of validation from your weight loss. Like, say, people like your dad sounds brilliant. He like straight out calling you out on it and has the courage to to call you out on it. Was there other people around you? You were validating the weight loss because we we are in a society that when people are losing a lot of weight through an eating disorder, there’s a lot of attention that gets drawn And they don’t realize that there’s damage being done. And I just wondered, you’ve been you name used losing weight and use but you was looking normal what ever normal looks like on the air for you for me. But I thought when I did my mistake that I did lose some weight that yeah, but it wasn’t. I thought I looked healthy, but I guess that was my because then I’d not been restricting long enough and I was eating healthy. I only had my chia pudding. But even though I hated putting horrible. But I was like, Oh, this is healthy. I need to like eat that. And so I do the health thing. And then I had to break up what I thought it was a breakup. The person actually didn’t think we were dating, which was half the problem. And then I think that’s when I went a bit more into overdrive, like, I need to get this revenge body so that my focus was more a losing weight than it had been before. So I did lose some weight before the Christmas and then I went to court. So actually those people and the new friends that I had it, only me and that body was my old clothes were baggy on me and I was needing to buy the next guy down and then actually wasn’t a healthy weight for me. You know, I was cold all the time. I lost my period. I have a falling out like no. The physical signs that this wasn’t, you know, good about food for me but they it’s funny because I’ve taught them since they knew me at the beach with the healthy one. That’s what she looks like. They didn’t know that Ruby thing was that big a toad dye that they kind of do think that. And then my dad, Sydney, I lived in Singapore and I was wearing a t shirt and he was like really shocked. And he was like, Jack, I’m going to cancel the family holiday to come see you if I’m the way I think that’s when I kind of went out of denial a bit because I was like, Okay, I should eat more. I got something more from the shop. And it was really a struggle to make my copy. Even though I knew calories, I knew what it well buy. Well, it’s really hard for me to add that. And I think then I did go to a cult group when I was there, but it was mostly younger people and a lot of impatient things. But, you know, people would come into the street so it didn’t feel like the right thing. And then it went back into denial about it, though it was quite up and down. So I think I. Think previous times that I’d been on a diet. On the diet, I had got validations that. And like when it was just a diet such that I would. I think when I was actually struggling to get the validation for at that point by previously had. So I guess for me it was like, oh, losing weight is a good thing. And it wasn’t. So that turned out and was like, Oh my God. Your dad sounds like he’s your biggest cheerleader. I think I think he is. Which is annoying as an alcoholic. But you know what? The end of that. But yeah, he is very supportive. I am lucky. I think, one, I’m really lucky that they paved the therapy for me. In that instance, I had to at that point. Otherwise, I don’t think I would have gone. I mean. Well, it just sounds like the light needs to sort of started. He was able to mask. He was very clever. He could mask a huge amount. But also you had really struggling. But other people around you didn’t notice. I think, because obviously you put on the front, don’t you? Like how it’s still going. I would just have all that talk to her in my head about, Oh, what we’re going to eat when we die, you know, when I’m going to exercise today. A lot more than that, that. I didn’t tell that to other people because it doesn’t really come up in conversation that I think like with mine, I think I was leaking out through certain conversations looking back on it because I can remember being pulled into records, the conversation at work because I was commenting on other people’s food which now was not okay. But the time I saw ice and I wasn’t like, I didn’t mean at the time that I wanted to be nice, but I was just a bit like. I’m saying this stuff and it’s not normal, but not threats are so powerful and it’s so invasive and it does. You did? Yeah, most definitely. I think I’m. Thing that was a big thing for me as well, is that I had ups and downs recovering all kind of changes in the eating to whatever I think. But I didn’t have that or what I could wake up because when I was ready restriction, I would wake up and exercise in the morning. I wake up early, I make myself do it in my bedroom. And I think that when I stop doing that and also then I was I was bingeing at night, which wasn’t obviously ideal. It was the moment, you know, I actually had energy in the morning and I believe I didn’t energy. And I think I’m on the the different thoughts in my head back down. I was like, oh. But you know, it’s changed. I think when you’re those ducking it, sometimes you don’t notice it got so bad, it becomes normal, does it? I call it like a trance. You’re like on a treadmill, aren’t you? Just like a trance. It’s just the same thing. And then there is that bit of clarity, energy, like you just see the world differently and you just want to embrace the world and do so much. I think that’s the thing. Like when I was struggling, when I when I lived abroad, I had nick puppies that wanted to go to. Then I get that I’m not ready to freak out about the foods and I just couldn’t enjoy it but still had operations, still had things that I knew I like to do, but I just couldn’t do them anymore. They. And you end up missing out on a huge amount of opportunity. How would you work with your clients, helping them explore that sense of self and getting them to really enjoy living their life again? Yeah. I think like you said, I think people’s who have become a lot more like what, you know, struggling with, you know, eating body image and things. And so I actually sometimes get people to do your journaling, like, what’s one thing I like about myself today? And it could start out between like, oh, I like I had a good hard day or Oh, I like my nails painted red doing something quite easy. But then I’ll get into like, what do I like about myself today? I think, what have I done today? I think when I put my thoughts out here on the podcast because I was a bit now and I’m not like outrageous. But then we had a nice chat before another market. But now I think, I think just trying to build up that like what are the assets of your personality or you know, they help someone to damage you like that about yourself and. And I think even if you do it that couple of weeks, obviously, because you know, you’re going to have to answer it later said you did it before. Badge of mind those looking out for the day. The thing about these are the things about me that aren’t just being good at anything because I think if people are saying you can also get the sense of pride like I’m so good at that. Yeah, this is what drives me. But that might be other things about you and that, you know, arguably more important. So I think that’s the really nice one. And and I think. I have the eating disorder at last, I think. Then I just try and encourage people to get out there a bit more like what their hobbies are. And you know, I’m also look that that values you probably do that, too. But, you know, I think if you’re not living in nine with your buddies, you got to change your life. But they by viewing and spending time with your family, you’re possibly not going to be that happy. I hope you know that having a family, now that I know you create a bit more creative things like have clothes, you take crochet and like all those I’ve gotten a pillow at crochet thing now that clients that may be yeah I think. As you get more into therapy, you have more headspace. Yeah. And it’s those things that you were about on your website with that mind map. Those things start changing and social pressures become easier as well. I think when you’re on Nice, Nicer may like going out for eating or even having that conversation with somebody, just somebody new. I would I find that really overwhelming. So one thing that I like the podcast coming on with you, this is all quite neef me. Every single day I try and do one thing that pushes me out my comfort zone. So and I think maybe that is the experience from the time sorta it’s that, oh, I don’t want to be normal, I want to be slightly different and I want to push myself in a different direction. And it sounds like that’s what you doing with your clients as well. Yeah, I guess. I guess we are. And I think that competition is on and I think I think about that because it’s just not that that I you might say, oh, it was the worst thing I ever did. I don’t know about that and not do that again. But we can also look. Okay. What what did you learn from that experience? Oh, they might be like, oh, that was really good. I’m so glad that we did that in the day. You know, now I’ve seen accomplished myself, but actually I bet that I can do with being bad and I’ve got great learning. I think the good thing about therapy is like punch your slack because I think sometimes when a it. You just kind of do it and we take the front head. But I think it’s good to reflect on activities and like, almost like learning. Well, rather than, I guess the conscious, though, what? You just got out of it. No, I agree. And it’s a bit like you going back to what we said earlier, is that you can you can look at a client where they were at. And then see how far they’ve come. And it’s that bit of, wow, you’ve done all of that, but it’s all different. But like pieces in the puzzle, isn’t it? The different pieces that connect together and that social pressure and being able to socialize and have the courage and that sense of self is all part of it. Yeah. It’s like, yeah, there’s a lot of different, different facets. And I think that to explain is that I think one of the things that cooking and paste that like the, the eating, the order, whatever that it’s in person doesn’t really have a goal anymore. I think maybe you can have a thought in the future because maybe you’ve had these thoughts for a long time. And one thing that if because that’s our if we were not taught at my state by palpate the pictures of posing that oh this this four years ago and it was during cleavage you know if you would only have 20 people otherwise things change up. She ended up anti-choice back amniotic that’s that like like the F the whole area bore her and but then she couldn’t have a original wedding cake or, you know, vaginal things that I was making her wedding cake. And long story short, it was just kind of going on because it had to be very dietary. I think it was gluten free, dairy free. They found it quite well. And then I made it the night all night. Must have been the day, 30 days, the book. And then I think the next day and I put too much sugar in it. It wasn’t my. And then I would make it in the evening. And then I had this little Sainsbury’s but that advocate down the road that there was traffic on both sides and I wasn’t very down the middle and end of the delivery lorry and that has to wait behind that. And I just need to get the I cannot even look to get back to make this tape because I need it for tomorrow and it’s already getting late that it was like but they note that McCartney and tapping if you like deep like hey calm down that’s fine like you’ve got to get the sugar went got the sugar pop the first and then a bit weird happened in the shop but my in my day of mind and then I got back I was making the cake. And then today when you put the parchment paper round the ten that had gone a bit wonky when it cook. So it wasn’t quite the bite shape I do. I did tuke and my brain was just like you could make a fantastic. They’re funny because I don’t have that thought anymore. But I think it was I put so much pressure on myself to make the perfect wedding cake, my friend, because it was her wedding. And my, I think, put pressure on myself with a big thing, my eating disorder, not eating early. I like the bingeing purging what the then as though the thought came like oh you could make your thick. But it was very easy for me to be like an actor. It just feels like a thought now. Before, when I was 13, like I felt compelled to go and eat. Whereas now like, oh, this idea of my brain, it offered me that. Actually, I don’t feel like I want to get to do it because now I just find it horrible. If I was to make myself sick as I was, I actually enjoyed it before. No, no, no, David, you say that. But I didn’t have to attach to. I could just be like, hey, I can understand why this come up. Because of my history now. Now it’s like 10:00 at night, and I’m already stressed, but I don’t need to engage with the Olmec that I could let it go. So funny, my auntie was helping me ice the cake and she made lavender flour. And so I think that’s why I felt guilty that I can’t even take my auntie, who, like, doesn’t hardly know my friend had gone to all this effort. I was trying to multitask. I was like, No, it’s like she can make up. I think. I just think that I know my name, but I’m a boss now. But it’s so powerful, though, because you up the pressure that you put on yourself and the expectations you put on yourself, like actually just being able to recognize it’s just the thought is it is just the thought is going to pass, it is going to be okay. Your aunt is just gone. That’s the right way about it. Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was. It was an I’d taken them up and was really happy with that. But I just thought about that every time her budget comes up, I just think about, Oh yeah, look at that. What just popped into my head. But. You don’t need to attach to it doesn’t happen to me very often anymore. And I think maybe get this thought and I was thinking about this earlier how did the conversation about is it an illness almost like to me, I feel like I’m recovered. Do you know what people that I’ve collected always in recovery. I don’t feel like I’m always in recovery. I feel like across the imaginary line in the fan. I’m not going to delay things again because I know what would probably trigger me. They, for example, like if I thought the desire, my prayer grab and had to do this on that day and the time and you know, I just don’t think that would be good for me. Then note that thing to avoid. I feel like I’m not going to go back that far, even if I had a thought. I don’t think. To me it means. I’ve got an eating disorder saying I’m in the sorts quite normal because I get the thoughts and then I go to my little remnants like, Oh honey. And I’m like, Why are you here? Like, What’s going on? Like, I’ve got two choices here, like cannibalism. But you’re just the thought. Or you can go away. Gone. I think that I think it’s when you’re in the struggle that thought is bowling your whole life. And as opposed to, oh, it’s just a thought like say and it’s not acting on the Thor as well. And the cake’s quite an important part of your Eugen is in it because it’s the pressure you put on it, but also just to recognize how far you’d come that you just was like. Why am I thinking? Nathan Jones He was just like, ah, about it. Like, Oh. And I was like, Well, I was just thinking that she was talking about it. It sounds so far y like all the things that was then back. Our norm is not our norm now and it’s like but you, your friend had to go and have a party. A Pizza Express is brilliant. It’s one of those memories that she could never take away because it’s such a unique.for those who may be listening and going through something similar. Words of how would you say to help them encourage about their journey or the possibilities of recovery? And also, where can they find you? Yeah. So I think just I believe that recovery is possible. I think that means different things to different people. And I’ve talked about, I think is a line in the sand that, you know, that that and the hope is now. But I think things kind of keep getting better. And that’s all I know. Like when I because not that I’m recovered, but then I just get more and more freedom to do different things. And like we said about that thought, they get less and less. But I think I believe that recovery I think I’m going to have a different journey, get there. Everyone’s going to have different obstacles in the way. But I think. You know, when I’ve talked to clients, sometimes the best impressions impression on the idea that they can make a change. And I think why people get that and I had the not oh okay great I can do that. As I think I’m not sure if you seen there’s a lot of talk about assisted dying. Have you seen that? And putting my eye out there, then I know that that’s really just a put anorexia or eating disorder in that category of people that we might help with assisted dying. But then are we treating that like a terminal illness? What are the implications of that? We, I don’t think, tell at the Hope podcast that we could have about that topic, but they have to be afraid to pull that thing. And you can find me on Rachel Evans Dot HD or Facebook page 718 to Thursday. I probably actually put it in the show notes that. But now I would say thank you so much for sharing your journey and coming on today. AM But. And August comes out cause some of you will wait in bit was took written into this bit. Okay. Thank you for joining me in. We’ll talk I’m remember every conversation like this have helped tear down the walls and build communities where everyone can feel safe to be themselves. Keep in mind to beat, keep being kind to your mind. And if there is something here that resonates with you, share it with somebody else. You never know who might. Needs a little reminder that they’re not alone in this. Catch up next. Time for a more unfiltered, real talk. It’s the end.